Marty McGee Bennett
08-02-2005, 05:07 PM
Marty:
I am a Novice handler with a new Llama and we are having some difficulties. I need some advice on how to over come the stand off we have managed to end up in. I know I am the one that has to figure this out and change my handling in order to make both of us more comfortable - but I haven't been able to figure out what to do on my own. I need advice from you. I attended your seminar at the SLC AOBA conference, and I have read your Camelid Companion and your techniques are helping me with my 2 Alpaca - we're getting along great. But not with the Llama.
Background on Tory the Llama:
He is 6 years old, gelded. He has lived his whole life at a Llama farm with approx 30 Llamas and at the times I visited to evaluate him for guard duty of my Alpacas he seemed to have the right stand offish yet handlable temperament. His owner had very little trouble harnessing him and I could lead him around with only minor protests, mostly because we would stop to talk and Tory would get impatient just standing.
The day he came to my farm (6/13/05) was very traumatic for him. His previous owner hadn't had the time to shear or trim his toenails, or his regular worming so she had me come over in the morning and we did all 3 things at once. He was Really not happy about this. Plus she cut too close on 3 toenails and a small slice on his side during shearing had blood on the ground and I'm sure hurt him. Then a few hours later he was packed up and transported to my farm about 15 miles away. I completely understood that he would be bewildered and bad tempered so I tried being nice and basically feeding him and leaving him alone. Another thing at his old farm was they are only fed hay with occasional treats of grain. Here I feed hay and a dinner snack of Mazuri Llama chews which is the routine the 2 Alpacas are used to. This snack is what we use to bring them up the barn for nightly lock in for predator protection.
The problem:
Tory is being very aggressive about either me or my husband coming in the barn or near him. We have to work in the barn - still needed finishing touches when the animals first arrived and daily maintenance. The barn is bisected with the Llama on one side and the Alpaca (2 2yr males) on the other so they can get used to each other. The hay pile is on Tory's side of the barn (tarped) and the barn cats food is in a loft above the hay so I have to go in there at least twice a day, sometimes more, to feed and such. Tory stands near the feed trough head straight up growling and occasionally spitting in the air. On other occasions when we're working on the Alpaca side Tory will come the to barrier and repeatedly spit all over either my husband or myself.
I have tried ignoring him, being aggressive back by yelling or advancing and forcing him out of the barn, and also hand feeding him to try to come to a truce. I have stopped giving him the Llama chews - he gets too aggressive over that. At one point he chased me down with the food pan in my hand and tried to knock it out of my hand. He won that encounter since I was unnerved and dropped it. He is almost 300 lbs. Yesterday my attempt at a truce was to hold out some chews while the Alpaca were eating theirs - he spit forcefully directly at me instead of eating. This morning I took the feed trough away and hand fed him hay over the barrier. No aggressive displays, but when I went back in his side to get his water bucket more growls and air spitting.
Other than the food pan incident he does not attack us. And if we just walk in the barn ignoring his display he will stop and either stand guard at the food trough or give up and go into the pasture until we leave. Mostly his spitting directly at us is while we're in the Alpaca side. While we're on his side of the barn or pasture he tends to spit in the air with his head up growling posture.
Now I need some advice on how to handle this situation so I don't make the classic Novice mistake and turn him into a hopelessly aggressive animal. Otherwise I will have to just admit defeat and return him to his previous owner so I don't ruin him. Though I need a guard Llama - I found coyote scat in the pasture a couple of days ago and I do not want my Alpacas becoming a meal...
If I haven't given you enough details or I have been confusing please ask me to clarify.
Ellen
I love llamas and always recommend that alpaca owners with only a few animals get their alpacas a llama. I am sorry it is proving to be difficult for you. I think that the traumatic beginning may be part of the problem but I suspect that most of the issue is your inexperience with llamas and the animal you picked. An older gelded male that has lived with other males and not much handling is an animal that needs a confident handler. I wonder how old he was when he was gelded too.. that may have something to do with things.
I think you have a llama that is very smart and controlling (good guard qualities) but unfortunately he has decided that the safest thing for his current situation is to remain firmly in charge of you. I don't think yelling or any of the other things you have tried are the right approach and changing your approach over and over is really going to make this guy crazy. I think it is important that decide on a philisophical approach and then stick to it. Are you going to try to be dominant (not my recommendation) or are you going to try making him feel more comfortable with your leadership... are you going to use food (again not my recommendation) or keep food totally out of the picture. You are really giving mixed signals.
Following are some of my recommendations:
1. Based on your description, food is very problematic for this fellow. Reduce or totally eliminate any food related interactions. This could make your interactions with your alpacas problematic when you put the three of them together. He could make it difficult to feed the alpacas.
2. Do not think dominance. Halter this guy (using the wand and rope catch technique in a small catch pen) and take him for walks and include challenging obstacles. This is the best way to become a safe and worthy leader.
3. Don't totally avoid eye contact but do your best not to react to any of his bluffing and posturing. Just go about your business and pretend you are unaware of all the macho stuff he is handing out.
4. Put him in with your alpacas and see how they get along. If he beats them up and won't let them eat and chases them out of the barn then he is not going to be an appropriate guard animal.
It sounds to me as if you might have gotten the wrong llama. A younger gelded male may be a better choice. If after a few weeks of trying the above if things don't improve and the owner will take him back... it might be the best thing to consider.
Also check out the GUILD LIBRARY at http://www.camelidynamics.com/guildForum/forumdisplay.php?f=15 for more detailed resources on this.
I am a Novice handler with a new Llama and we are having some difficulties. I need some advice on how to over come the stand off we have managed to end up in. I know I am the one that has to figure this out and change my handling in order to make both of us more comfortable - but I haven't been able to figure out what to do on my own. I need advice from you. I attended your seminar at the SLC AOBA conference, and I have read your Camelid Companion and your techniques are helping me with my 2 Alpaca - we're getting along great. But not with the Llama.
Background on Tory the Llama:
He is 6 years old, gelded. He has lived his whole life at a Llama farm with approx 30 Llamas and at the times I visited to evaluate him for guard duty of my Alpacas he seemed to have the right stand offish yet handlable temperament. His owner had very little trouble harnessing him and I could lead him around with only minor protests, mostly because we would stop to talk and Tory would get impatient just standing.
The day he came to my farm (6/13/05) was very traumatic for him. His previous owner hadn't had the time to shear or trim his toenails, or his regular worming so she had me come over in the morning and we did all 3 things at once. He was Really not happy about this. Plus she cut too close on 3 toenails and a small slice on his side during shearing had blood on the ground and I'm sure hurt him. Then a few hours later he was packed up and transported to my farm about 15 miles away. I completely understood that he would be bewildered and bad tempered so I tried being nice and basically feeding him and leaving him alone. Another thing at his old farm was they are only fed hay with occasional treats of grain. Here I feed hay and a dinner snack of Mazuri Llama chews which is the routine the 2 Alpacas are used to. This snack is what we use to bring them up the barn for nightly lock in for predator protection.
The problem:
Tory is being very aggressive about either me or my husband coming in the barn or near him. We have to work in the barn - still needed finishing touches when the animals first arrived and daily maintenance. The barn is bisected with the Llama on one side and the Alpaca (2 2yr males) on the other so they can get used to each other. The hay pile is on Tory's side of the barn (tarped) and the barn cats food is in a loft above the hay so I have to go in there at least twice a day, sometimes more, to feed and such. Tory stands near the feed trough head straight up growling and occasionally spitting in the air. On other occasions when we're working on the Alpaca side Tory will come the to barrier and repeatedly spit all over either my husband or myself.
I have tried ignoring him, being aggressive back by yelling or advancing and forcing him out of the barn, and also hand feeding him to try to come to a truce. I have stopped giving him the Llama chews - he gets too aggressive over that. At one point he chased me down with the food pan in my hand and tried to knock it out of my hand. He won that encounter since I was unnerved and dropped it. He is almost 300 lbs. Yesterday my attempt at a truce was to hold out some chews while the Alpaca were eating theirs - he spit forcefully directly at me instead of eating. This morning I took the feed trough away and hand fed him hay over the barrier. No aggressive displays, but when I went back in his side to get his water bucket more growls and air spitting.
Other than the food pan incident he does not attack us. And if we just walk in the barn ignoring his display he will stop and either stand guard at the food trough or give up and go into the pasture until we leave. Mostly his spitting directly at us is while we're in the Alpaca side. While we're on his side of the barn or pasture he tends to spit in the air with his head up growling posture.
Now I need some advice on how to handle this situation so I don't make the classic Novice mistake and turn him into a hopelessly aggressive animal. Otherwise I will have to just admit defeat and return him to his previous owner so I don't ruin him. Though I need a guard Llama - I found coyote scat in the pasture a couple of days ago and I do not want my Alpacas becoming a meal...
If I haven't given you enough details or I have been confusing please ask me to clarify.
Ellen
I love llamas and always recommend that alpaca owners with only a few animals get their alpacas a llama. I am sorry it is proving to be difficult for you. I think that the traumatic beginning may be part of the problem but I suspect that most of the issue is your inexperience with llamas and the animal you picked. An older gelded male that has lived with other males and not much handling is an animal that needs a confident handler. I wonder how old he was when he was gelded too.. that may have something to do with things.
I think you have a llama that is very smart and controlling (good guard qualities) but unfortunately he has decided that the safest thing for his current situation is to remain firmly in charge of you. I don't think yelling or any of the other things you have tried are the right approach and changing your approach over and over is really going to make this guy crazy. I think it is important that decide on a philisophical approach and then stick to it. Are you going to try to be dominant (not my recommendation) or are you going to try making him feel more comfortable with your leadership... are you going to use food (again not my recommendation) or keep food totally out of the picture. You are really giving mixed signals.
Following are some of my recommendations:
1. Based on your description, food is very problematic for this fellow. Reduce or totally eliminate any food related interactions. This could make your interactions with your alpacas problematic when you put the three of them together. He could make it difficult to feed the alpacas.
2. Do not think dominance. Halter this guy (using the wand and rope catch technique in a small catch pen) and take him for walks and include challenging obstacles. This is the best way to become a safe and worthy leader.
3. Don't totally avoid eye contact but do your best not to react to any of his bluffing and posturing. Just go about your business and pretend you are unaware of all the macho stuff he is handing out.
4. Put him in with your alpacas and see how they get along. If he beats them up and won't let them eat and chases them out of the barn then he is not going to be an appropriate guard animal.
It sounds to me as if you might have gotten the wrong llama. A younger gelded male may be a better choice. If after a few weeks of trying the above if things don't improve and the owner will take him back... it might be the best thing to consider.
Also check out the GUILD LIBRARY at http://www.camelidynamics.com/guildForum/forumdisplay.php?f=15 for more detailed resources on this.