Fencing for alpacas

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Marty,
I am a very new alpaca owner. (They will be arriving on the first of July.)
Most of my fencing is that PCV rail fencing about 52 inches high. I am thinking (so crias don't get out and we live by the woods with possible foxes,not sure about bobcats) that I need a fencing put inside of this for security. I was thinking about a noclimb woven wire fence (five foot) After reading your article about metal panels and plastic I thought I had better see if this was a good idea. Your thoughts?
(By the way where do you get this type of plastic you referred to in your article as I may put it on my panels in the barn?)

I have two of your tapes on handling (which I will need to practice with my group) and also your Camelid Companion (but didn't see anything in the book about my question.)
Thanks for your help. I have used T touch on my rescued sheltie and like the techniques, hopefully I will get to attend one of your BASIC workshops someday.

Hi, Where do you live? I think the wire no-climb is probably a good option. I would do some research and get a couple of different opinions. Is there something you could attach to the PVC fencing to save money perhaps? The plastic fence is from usfence and this is the url for it on their website http://secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=1730237

Hope that helps,
Marty

[mulberry]

In November of 2004 we needed to fence a property to protect our alpacas and their cria and we did a lot of research, so I may be able to help. If there is any danger of mountain lions in your area, then even five foot high will not be enough - we ended up with a "compound" around our barn of 8 foot high fencing with a hot wire mounted at about 6' 6" high (the concept being that the electrified part should be low enough to throw the predators BACK and not to shoot them over into your compound!). No climb fencing is expensive, but more of less inevitable on the lower half, but don't be talked into having no-climb all the way up - beyond 4 foot high you are fine with a higher run of "regular" fencing. Finally, you will also need to embed a strand of barbed wire in the ground around the outer edge of your compound to stop the predators from digging. We use our compound for cria night and day, but our older alpacas are fine in pastures (fenced with 4 foot high fencing) in the daytime - we move them into the compound at night. Marty also made the very wise suggestion of a guard llama as added protection, giving plenty of warning if things go awry in the daytime. I hope that helps? It is all horribly expensive but worth it when balanced against the cost and heartbreak if something went wrong.

[Marty McGee Bennett]

This is so clever. I love the idea of a compound and what a money saver. So many people build a fence and because of money constraints the animals are severly limited in how much room they can have... this way you can have your cake and your animals can eat it too! They can spend time out in a bigger area when it is safe and you can sleep at night.

[Pritanio]

Mulberry wrote:
Marty also made the very wise suggestion of a guard llama as added protection, giving plenty of warning if things go awry in the daytime.
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Marty's right. I wouldn't trade/sell one of my guardian llamas for ANYTHING! :) He's proven his stuff on a couple of occassions. On the other hand, I like what my mentors taught me. It's a team (different than tteam *grin*) effort. Good fencing combined with good guardian llamas are great, add livestock guardian dogs and you've really got a winning combination.

Without more experience I can't give any hard evidence, but my gut instinct (and a couple of stories) tells me that a pair of guardian llamas and a pair of lgd would be better than singles. A couple of predators are more likely to be able to keep one guardian busy while the other predator goes for the meal. I think this would be more of a challenge if you have more than one guardian. On the other hand it also comes down to financial position, size of pastures and number of animals. Four guardians for four or five animals might be overkill. :D

Just some thoughts on a beautiful summer morning on the west coast.
Susan Mackey

[Marty McGee Bennett]

I love dogs and have one (a golden doodle not a guard dog) but just a bit of a caution about guard dogs. Many small alpaca breeders may find that they don't have a big enough job for a guard dog or a big enough place. A bored guard dog can be a danger to the animals they are there to protect. That is one of the very nice things about llamas is that they are so compatible with alpacas. They eat the same things poop the same way and aren't a threat to the animals. I think it takes quite a while for alpacas to get used to living with a dog and if the space is too small it can make the animals really nervous.

[castone3]

I recently purchased property to start on "building" my alpaca farm. I am in the process of getting barn plans, house plans (although barn and pastures come first, of course!) and all other kinds of plans in order. I am thinking of
having a Guardian Llama within the pasture with the alpacas instead of
having a GLD patrolling the outer areas of the pastures. Do you personally have a preference one over the other?? And what would you recommend as a good ratio of Guardian Llamas to the alpacas? Also, a question that I have for you is ...in all of your travels around the southeast (especially around GA and NC) can you recommend a reputable farm that raises Llamas to be Guardian Llamas?? I have heard both good and bad stories about Guardian Llamas. It sounds like in the long run, it just depends on the personality of the individual Llama as well as if the Llama has had "training" to be a "good" Guardian Llama or not.

I would so appreciate your thoughts on having a Guardian Llama/s versus
a Guardian Livestock Dog. I really want to think this out carefully.
If I go with a Guardian Livestock Dog, I feel that I would need to put
up an exterior perimeter fence so that the dog could patrol between
the inner fence and the outer fence (so that the dog would be
contained and he/she wouldn't wander off.)(Even those who have been neutered can still wander.) This would definitely be more costly... Please share your thoughts!

Thanks so much,
Anne

[Marty McGee Bennett]

In my experience llamas are a much better bet for protection than are guardian dogs particularly if you have a small place. I like dogs and I have one but alpacas are afraid of most dogs and they really do well with llamas. The llamas don't necessarily have to guard actively the alpacas will hide behind them. In your case given that you are going to create a no-mans land for the dogs I think the llamas would be much cheaper. As far as the ratio of llamas to alpacas I think a big female or a couple of big females or long ago gelded males are great for your mothers and babies. I don't know that adult males need a llama for protection but a big gelding might make a nice boss of the boys if he has a good laid back personality. Lars Garrison in Stamford Vermont llamawmf@sover.net and Anne Heath rahlama@hpnc.com is a good source of guard llamas and information.
Guard llamas are not trained per se but they have protective personalities. But as I said before they don't have to actively guard to be useful. The alpacas feel safer with a big llama around and that is a good thing.

[Don Hereford]

We are in process of installing 5' no climb around the perimeter of our pasture - but it looks as though the county is going to make us put in a silt fence at the toe end of our pasture, just before the creek.... I am planning on putting the silt fence on the inside of the no climb for easy fastening.... Our question is --- Does anyone have a feel for how the alpacas will react to the silt fencing, will they be prone to chewing on it, and if so can it be harmful???
Thanks
Don

[kmdombeck]

Hi Don,
Our experence is that the alpacas will chew on the wood. To this date we have not had an animal sick because of it but we have 160 animals and they do some real damage.

[Judy]

Some of us are wondering about how alpacas would respond to a solid wood fence--one they could not see through or over. Does anyone have experience with this? Thanks.

[Marty McGee Bennett]

my experience is that alpacas don't like being closed in.. .they mostly don't even like barns. It would depend on how you used the fence. If it was to fence the whole group in, it might be fine but to fence groups apart from one another I don't think so. What is the application?

[Dorothy Hunt]

Hi Judy, I have a few thoughts about a solid wood fence:
Many predators can climb a wooden fence with ease.
Your alpacas would probably prefer to see past the fence, and will almost certainly feel safer if they can see their surroundings.
You could not see your animals through the fence, which would impede both their safety and your pleasure.
Most wooden fences require more maintenance than wire.
Hope this helps,
Radar

[Paulette Kaskinen]

Hi -

I really appreciate everyone's input on this subject - I am in the process of trying to figure out how to do perimeter fencing for my small pasture and am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on pipe fencing w/ wire mesh vs t-posts w/ wire mesh. I'm wondering if we'd be okay with the 7' t-posts sunk to 5' - would this likely be sturdy enough to keep out dogs? We don't have dog attacks every day, but it does happen down here in central New Mexico. Obviously, pipe fencing is a whole nother ballgame in terms of expense.

Thanks,

Paulette

[JWW]

Hi - we are also a small breeder and set up our farm in Virginia last year. We currently have 8 alpacas and now 3 guard llamas. We also looked into the guard dog issue but decided against them because of some tragic stories we'd heard, as well as the small number of animals we currently have.

We have purchased 3 guard llamas from Dr. Donna Matthews, a camelid vet in Luray, VA - her number is (540) 743-7298. She has a sizeable llama herd and some are bred to be guardians. She knows which ones would be good for the job and we have been very happy with her animals. (and she is a wonderful person as well to deal with) They'd been trained to halter and lead rope prior to our purchase, a big help. We initially bought a female and a gelded male, then more recently we purchased another female. The male was okay with most of our female alpacas, but tried to mount one of our adult open females, so we moved her in with the female llama, and he did not bother any of the other females in his group (I think that one provoked him!). Now that we have weanlings, we put the gelded llama in with the two male weanlings, and have the other two (female) groups split between the two female llamas. Everyone is happy. Coyotes are a problem here and neighboring farms with sheep have lost several animals, but we've had no problem. I think when they see the big llamas they go elsewhere for an easier find. Also, we do have a large dog (A Bernese Mountain Dog - not a guard dog) and perhaps his presence on the property is an added deterrant.

I intend to always have a llama in with every group of alpacas. You just have to feed them separately or they may try to eat all the food and get very fat. We give them less food and a cheaper food than the alpacas. This is not hard to do with the small herd that we have, but I can see that it might be more difficult to separate the llamas for feeding with a larger herd situation.

For perimeter fencing we have posts and no-climb wire with a strand of hot wire (which we've never electrified) about 6 inches above the no-climb wire which adds up to close to five feet. So far, so good, but man, was it expensive!

[Caroline Neil]

Alpacas are by nature a very curious bunch, and any attraction outside the pasture fencing and the perimeter fence is fuel for their immediate attention. It can be a car driving down the lane to our barn, a lawn mower, a bear, or other woodland creatures. Their favorite diversion is visitors to our farm. My feeling is that a solid wood fence like stockade fencing could foster boredom, and could make them a bit jittery because they can't see what is on the other side.

No climb woven fencing has been wonderful for us, and we have used it to enclose all of our pastures, as well as for our entire perimeter fence that encircles all pastures and the barn itself. The hot wire is extremely effective, as is the barbed wire that runs at ground level (only on the perimeter fence).

We do not use dogs or llamas, although we started out with llamas. The alpacas are very wary of any changes and will sound the alarm when needed.

Caroline
Mill View Mountain Alpacas
www.mvmalpacas.com

[NinaFaust]

Yesterday out skiing we found a bear den that had been vacated earlier in the day. I was not expecting bears out until later in the month. This is pretty early. So now, with our 8-foot high predator proof fence buried halfway up and the electric lines down, I am moving into fast repair mode and making plans for summer modification. That third electric line near the top of the 8-foot fence is going in this summer.

Meanwhile, I am repairing the electric fence and digging out the lines. I was expecting the sun and warmer temperatures to do the work for me! Oh well, at least I will be prepared for next year. Those of us living close to wilderness and in snow country have to think about snow depth in choosing our fences.

Alaska Style Predator Proof Fencing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jykm6-vGuAI

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[julie follansbee]

Oh Nina, you have your work cut out for you!
We are in Pa. and have black bears and the other night we heard the alpacas screaming. My husband looked out and there was a huge (probably in the 250lb range) black bear sitting on the sand mound next to our alpaca enclosure. We have a 6 ft. fence with and electric line at the bottom and one at the top. Even though I KNEW the fence was on, my husband reminded me that these are my animals and that I should go check to be sure! Luckily the controls are right outside of our basement door on the alpaca side of the house ( it WAS on)! The bear just got up and lumbered off.
Someone told us to drape a piece of raw bacon on the top electric line and that the bear, or whatever, will get a nice enhanced jolt (since it is wet) when he touches it. They suggested doing it on the bottom line for dogs too. Seems to me that that would be tempting fate and I think I'll pass on that idea!
I'm more worried about coyotes. They seem to be cropping up more and more lately. One of our distant neighbors found a den with 11 pups in it.

[julie follansbee]

I forgot to mention that we had a doozy of a winter here too in Pa and it never occurred to me that snow would be a problem with an electric fence until ours shorted out the day before we were leaving for a long weekend! I think I spent more time shoveling around my fence than I did on our walkways! I made sure that whole daggone line was exposed! On the top of my wishlist is a walk behind snow blower!

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Llamas are very good insurance regarding coyotes. Certainly no match for a bear but they are tall and intimidating!

[julie follansbee]

Hmmmm...something to consider!
Thanks Marty!

[Marty McGee Bennett]

There is also a way of connecting electric fence wires so that one wire is ground and one is hot which means that as long as the invader touches two wires they complete the circuit and a shock is delivered. I could be wrong on this but it is worth discussing with your electric fence expert. Keeps you safe when the ground is covered with snow.

[NinaFaust]

Bacon on the fence!? No way would I want to invite bears or coyotes to hang around the pen. We discourage coyotes from coming near our house with loud noises. I finally got the top line activated on April 25. Good thing as there have been least 5 different bear track sightings in the neighborhood.

The bottom electric line is likely to zap any digging coyote. Under the gates I buried a mesh of strong wire so they will get into that before they get very far.

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And for now, until the snow melts away from the fence, I am leaving the monitor in the barn so I can hear any alpaca alarm calls from inside the house. Kinda fun anyway to hear what they are doing out there--mostly chewing and eating.

No more shoveling for this season, it is melting! Spring is on its way.

[OHL]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the bears are generally much less interested in your llamas/alpacas than in whatever you might be feeding them. In general, they will not attack your animals - but might scare them while they are trying to find a free meal. So make sure your grain bins and trash are locked up and try not to worry so much about your four-leggeds.

And the bacon on the hot fence will definitely deter any land animal (dog/coyote/bear) from visiting again. An electric shock to the tender nose/mouth creates an aversion, for sure. (:

I don't think a single piece of bacon on your fence is likely to draw in any animals who weren't already visiting.

And Marty's suggestion of having alternating "hot" and grounded wires in areas that get lots of snow is a good one. This will mean that the snow won't insulate the electric shock you are intending. But, the wires do have to be close enough together to be touched at the same time.

Just a couple of my thoughts. Hope they help!

Sara

[NinaFaust]

Thanks, Sara. You are right about keeping grain bins secure. Any unsecured grain in my pen is eaten right on the spot by my guys. Grain is in the barn, in a covered can, inside the pen. All trash is also secure.

But I am not so sure about bears not being too interested in alpacas. This time of year they are very hungry, and we have both black and the more aggressive grizzly bears. Just below the ridge we live on, a very large, male black bear seriously injured our neighbor's llama a few summers ago. In Anchorage, a brown bear ate one of the alpacas on a hillside ranch. Not far from here, several goats were eaten by brownies.

But you are right, keeping pet food and people food secure is extremely important so as not to create problem bears. That has been one of the biggest challenges here in Alaska neighborhoods where the urban/suburban areas butt up against the remote wildlands of the backcountry. People are often careless with garbage and pet food.

I am not sure I understand the hot and grounded wire thing. I have the predator proof New Zealand fencing and the hot wire stands off of that with the insulator brackets. Any critter that touches it will likely also be grounded by touching the fence. My problem is that the drifting winter snow not only covers the lower fence and electric wires but also breaks the insulator brackets and sometimes snaps the the wire. My bottom line is still useless because it is both snapped and buried in snow.

If I had a huge tractor, I could blow around the whole fence, but that is not feasible. Oh well, I am not very worried anymore--I have two lines working and it is still light outside after 10 pm!
Nina

[Marty McGee Bennett]

I think you Nina are in a different situation given that you live in Alaska, I think Sara's point is probably valid down here regarding Black bears. The ground hot wire is very useful and what it means is that every other wire can be ground and if the animal touches a ground and hot at the same the circuit is completed and the animal gets zapped even if they are standing on snow or something else that insulates them from the ground. The trick as Sara mentioned is that the wires have to be close enough that the animal will touch two wires when they are attempting to crawl through. If anyone reading this has questions about it you can ask a fencing guy how this works and they can fill you in with the details.

[NinaFaust]

That makes sense to me. Thanks, Marty. If I only had to worry about the snowshoe hare I just saw in the pen next to the alpacas, it would be no big deal! But that is life in the Last Frontier. :o)

[NinaFaust]

Today a black bear walked up to the fence, hit its nose on one of the electric lines. It jumped back and then ran as fast as it could away from the alpaca enclosure. Yea!!! The fence did its job.

[rose@almapark.com]

Nina - now you HAVE to try to get video of something like that!! :)

Rose

[NinaFaust]

I know. My husband saw the whole thing. Had I been here, trust me, it would have been on film!
Nina

[NinaFaust]

Just got some new fencing for inside my alpaca pen to help manage the quality of the forage. I now have the pen divided into 3 pastures with gates and a runway. Nice part is, I can move things around if and when I want.

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[NinaFaust]

I hope it quits blowing and snowing soon. I only have 3-4 feet of fence sticking out of the snow now. I turned on the top electric wire. Tomorrow I am installing the intercom in the barn so I can hear alarm calls if something does get over the fence. The snow pack is so drifted hard in places, it can't even be blown if I wanted to. And I am tired of shoveling...

Darn, I am ready for spring! Bring on the melt!!!

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[Marty McGee Bennett]

AND... we have not had a winter at all! But then we don't have sand hill cranes elk, bear either. someone wise once said "You can have it all... you just can't have it all at the same time!" I hope the spring comes soon for you!

[NinaFaust]

Spring is creeping in. It hit 40 degrees today, and I hear from folks across town that the bears are out. With only 2-3 feet of fence sticking out of the snow, it was time for action. Trying to do it myself was out of the question, so we hired a bobcat with a snowblower and blew the outside of the fence line. Now I can repair the two broken lower electric lines and sleep better at night!

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