Petting Zoo???? Did I do the right thing???

[seventhtown]

OK, so I feel very strongly that alpacas should not be part of a petting zoo (when they are actually being man handled by good intentioned children but still manhandled to death) My husband and I have had our herd since May but as most people that have become alpaca owners we did months of research/farm visits before we actually had our own. We read books, talk to breeders did internet research.....pretty much the norm for newcomers.

Early this summer we had 2 ladies drop by our home who was looking for used cheap alpaca halters for 2 young male alpacas she just had donated (from a supposed breeder) to her traveling petting zoo I told her that unfortunatley I did not have any halters and infact needed to purchase more for my herd. I pointed her in the direction of 2 stores in Canada that I knew she could purchase Zepher halters and said they were the best and explained about proper halter fit. During this time her mother was out in the pasture with my husband and they were chatting about the wonderful world of alpacas.

It turned out that these 2 well meaning ladies new nothing about the uniquness of the animals soooooo I offered this site as a good research point for handling Marty's book as a good book to read and reread and many other websites plus and open door to her for information and advice should she need it. Later in an email where I sent her many more websites for information I did go one to explain to her that I felt (as many others out there do) ALpacas are not petting zoo animals explained the reasons why even sent her websites with articles explaing why they are not good petting zoo animals. Only to later get a email basically saying thanks for the info I will take it into consideration but my boys are fine for petting zoo. Basically I didn't tell her what she wanted to hear (even though she came to my door Literally) for information. What could I do so I politley said good luck.

Yesterday my husband found an add on Kijiji for that lady trying to sell or trade her 1 male alpaca who was not fitting into the petting zoo atmosphere (in other words acting like an alpaca) I offered to Rescue both alpacas and put them in a atmosphere that they need to be in (herd) she came back all angry and said that she found the term resecu to be insulting because in no way are they being harmed, I explained I want the best for the animals and that is to be with their own kind she said that she would trade me one of my animals or sell the one I said I would never sell or trade one of my animals to a petting zoo and would purchase both boys for $300 (I didn't want to seperate them) she basically came back to say she would not sell them or give them to me and that her breeder was helping her with the situation and he has years not months of experience with alpacas.

To me this breeder was irresponcible in the fact that her donated these boys to her and didn't seem to give her any information on alpacas, if he is help her now why does she have a kijiji add trying to get rid of one???? I have asked for the breeders name and she has only ever given me his first name I can't find him on Alpaca Canada or Alpaca Ontario so it makes me wonder if he is even a breeder. ANyway I apologized to her as she said she felt insulted by my email to Rescue and then wished the best of luck.....I'm venting but feedback on this would be appreciated I mean did I do the right thing?

[Marty McGee Bennett]

This is a tough issue for sure... and hindsight is always 20 20. I think there are many alpacas who don't have a great lot in life and many of them are not in petting zoos. So while I agree with you that alpacas are not ideal petting zoo animals, if they are taken care of and have reasonable living arrangements it might not be as bad as all that. Have you visited the zoo? I also think as you found out that using the term rescue is a bit loaded and should probably be avoided when dealing with the current owner. Your heart is surely in the right place and it would be nice if they could come and live with you perhaps that is still in the cards.

[rose@almapark.com]

Hmmm - I agree with Marty that this is a tough issue!!

I have done many "rescues" over the past few years but try not to label them this way. I have also been to petting zoos where the animals were treated better than some "backyard" breeder farms I have visited. . . so it is hard to say how these boys are being treated.

I think that you did the right thing for the animals but maybe approached it in the wrong way. There are many folks out there that ask for help and then when you give it they get insulted. It happened to me with a person down the road who has llamas. I often tell people if you don't want the truth don't ask !!

I agree they are not petting zoo animals and perhaps you can contact the woman again in a few days to see if she will accept your offer. If not - trust me you will have many chances in the future to help out some other animals!!!

Good for you that you have a good heart and try to help out animals! Keep up the good work and don't let this one negative experience define you !

Rose

[jeannine]

I hate to think of any animal in a petting zoo and especially an alpaca. I am a mom that has never taken my daughter to one. But if you are not able to give these alpacas the home you would like, it may help you feel better if you think of them as ambassadors. At age 8 I fell in love with a llama at a petting zoo. 40+ years later my llama from Southeast Llama Rescue walked off the trailer and into a lovely life on my farm.
Hoping they are well cared for, not too tormented with inappropriate handling and planting seeds of good will.

Jeannine

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Perhaps an alternative for those of us who don't like petting zoo's is to offer training to the animals and caretakers so that the animals can be better understood and maybe the caretakers or facility owners might make some changes that would benefit the animals.

Interesting sometimes to think about the way many owners use food to lure the animals out to interact with farm visitors, children, or themselves... I wonder how different this is from a petting zoo? Perhaps by degree... I just watched a very interesting movie last night on a totally unrelated topic... Bigger Stronger Faster. It is about steroid use in this country. I would have thought that I had very clear and strong opinions about this but the narrator/director did a very good job of presenting the issue in a way which made me really think and realize that most issues are not black and white but shades of gray. I think zoo's petting zoo's and alpaca ownership are full of compromises. It is very difficult to take a position and not find yourself being a bit inconsistent when you closely examine all of the issues of animal ownership.

All this to say that perhaps taking the position that you do what you can do for animals and humans and do your best to be kind and respectful of both.

[seventhtown]

Thanks ladies,

The petting Zoo is a traveling petting Zoo, I did actually see her petting Zoo prior to her getting her alpacas, basically she goes to peoples homes or events and brings a trailer of different animals (goats,bunnies,ducks....) and allows kids and people to interact with the animals. I am all for the education portion of the Petting Zoo, I just fear that people are getting the wrong idea from this lady I offered her help and information and she just didn't want to hear it. My father in-law encountered the petting zoo at a Car show event after she got her alpacas and he was saddened to see that the 2 boys were in a 5x5 pen and didn't have anywhere to go to get away from the crowds.

I have seized communication with this ladie because she has made it clear that I am not being encouraging which is true I cannot encourage her to use these animals in this manner and honestly I don't feel she is using them to educate people because when she came here she didn't know anything about alpacas other then the were cute & cuddly and even though I offered information to her she wasn't interested. So all I can do is hope for the best outcome for these animals and hope that anyone that may become interested in owning alpacas as a result of seeing them at the petting zoo will do the research and seek out breeders for further information.

Rose, I share the same opinion if you don't want the truth then don't ask.

thanks again for the posts :)

[Nancy Woodward]

The petting zoo people are incredibly persistent--and seem often to be offensively self righteous in their demands/ critical of folks worried about animals' well being. Even some of my favorite 4-H people seem resistant to the concept that petting zoos are a stressful environment for many animals--one exception, pygmy goats, do fine, but you gotta feel for the poor chickens....

Frankly, the 4-H practice of petting zoos as a fund raiser ought to be confronted. Petting zoos seem to me to give innocent, unknowing children a sense of entitlement to touch and feel every animal within reach, without educating them in any way towards being sensitive to the animals.

One solution (that doesn't fly with everybody) is to place baskets of fiber on a table accessible to touch, while the alpacas themselves are protected from the public by panels. I use one basket of very nice lamb's wool, and another of alpaca fiber, and invite people to feel the difference.

Children often seem receptive to the concepts of consideration and respect, if given the opportunity to understand. I say frankly and without apology that my alpacas are from a farm where they do not see alot of people, and are shy: they do not like to be grabbed at by strangers, "would you?" Many children understand that. I tell the children that if they will put their hands behind their backs, the alpacas may choose to come torwards the fence panel to sniff their noses.

To be clear, I am not talking about a petting zoo here--just one annual ten day county fair event, after which I myself go hide for weeks to recover from the stress. On the last day of the last fair we served in this way, I was so sick of the public that I actually told the alpacas in the barn, "hey, if you guys don't feel like loading up, I won't make you." They loaded, like the little jewels they are--open the van door, say no more....

But on the last hour of the last day, my good little Ruby Tuesday had had enough: she spit. The brats that had been trying to get an alpaca to spit whenever my back was turned for ten solid days were shouting triumphantly, "She spit!!! She spit at me!!!"

Frankly I wish it had been more than a dry spit. If I personally had the power to unload a pint of green, I'd have done it, and no apologies.

Incidentally, the AOBA documents available for 4-H are pretty sadly inadequate.

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Using the wool as a way of diverting the "petting" idea is a good one I use it with adults too, I find adults can be just as "petting" oriented as kids. I wrote an article about taking your alpaca or llama out in to the pubic with suggestions about how to advocate for your animal and still use him/her for promotion.
http://www.camelidynamicsguild.com/guildForum/showthread.php?t=253&highlight=Public
I think it is important to remember that you can't know till you know and educating the public and children is part of the business of having alpacas and llamas and dogs and horses. Setting boundaries respectfully with the public is part of your responsibility when you take any animal into a public setting.

[rose@almapark.com]

Marty - that is a great article.

I do use several of my young boys at local events to "meet the public". But they are safe in a 9x9 pen away from prying hands behind my yarn table and I have a basket of fiber (like Nancy) so that if people want to touch. I let no one in the pen and tell people that they are shy and are not like dogs or goats and prefer to be seen and not touched. Some people get upset - and others understand. I too get so disgusted with the public sometimes, but I continue to smile and try to minimize the stress on myself and my "ambassadors" to a by sitting between them and the public.

Rose

[Nancy Woodward]

Thanks for this conversation! It is really cool to have the basket of fiber out where people can handle it. On the same table, I use other touchables, such as alpaca teddy bears and toys made of the fiber. I also put out a selection of reading materials and dvd's, including Marty's. Quality Llama Products sends me extra catalogs so those can be given away, free.

By having a second basket of nice quality shetland lamb's wool roving, clean and ready to spin available for touching also, the comparison with the basket of raw alpaca fiber draws alot of oohs and aahs--along with, "Oh, NOW I understand why...."

Also, I have some great clients who are much more personable than I am, who actually enjoy the meet and greet. Thanks, Marty, for some tips we can all use.

[Rose W.]

We took our two boys, who were 1 1/2 years old at the time, with us to our local Earth Day Fair. We had them on grass, under a tree in a 10 x 10 pen. It is amazing how forward people are! They just walked up to the pen and stuck their hands through and over the panels to touch the boys. After several hours of explaining that alpacas don't like to be touched, etc, we finally put up signs, asking people not to try to touch and to just look. Most (but not all) did what we asked...

I always have containers with sheep fleece, cashmere goat, alpaca and camel on display so people can feel the difference in the different fleeces. It's a nice demonstration on how soft and luxurious alpaca fleece is compared to the others!

Rose
Berlanta Alpacas

[rose@almapark.com]

Rose -

Most of the public is curious and clueless, this is why when I take my boys anywhere, I put them behind me and my yarn so that I can stop any potential incidents.

This past weekend I was to bring my boys to a Street Fair, along with all my products. We took all our stuff (minus the boys) since the fair was only 15 minutes away and said, once we set up, we will go back and get the boys. When we got there - they put us across from the street band (and it was loud) and there was no way to put the boys "behind me", I would have to put there pen to the side of me. So we opted to leave the boys home. I was SO glad I did, the music was loud (and bad -lol) and there were way too many dogs and kids. Actually the fair was a mad house.

I told everyone that stopped at my booth that I would have had animals here today, but conditions were not correct and if they wanted to see an alpaca/llama in person, they could come by my farm. In the meantime, I have wonderful yarn and raw fiber for them to feel.

I always chose the good of the animals over anything else - so when it looks like it will be a problem I leave them home, because as you know - signs don't seem to work for everyone !

Rose

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Good good advice!

[Alpacawoman09]

Rose

I had the boys right next to me and the enclosure was bordered by a low wall with a high fence on the back. So there were only two sides exposed for the public to approach. Most of the time either a friend of mine or I were inside the pen with the boys telling people about alpacas and having them touch the different fleeces so that they could feel the quality of all of them. It worked out well that way. By the way, the signs did a good job to keep people from trying to touch the animals (except for the few incorrigible once, of course). Luckily those two boys don't mind crowds!

Rose

[rose@almapark.com]

Rose - I think I am going to put up signs at my next outing . . . perhaps it can cut back 90% of the stress (to the boys and mostly ME) :)

Rose