clicker training

[christinepi]

I'm not sure this is the right place to ask this, but here goes: I read somewhere when training (in this case clicker training, and I don't own alpacas yet, but will soon) an alpaca to never ever give a treat/reward from your hand. If that's the case, how is one supposed to give it??

Christine

[hilaryc]

Hi,
I have a couple of alpacas, but they aren't at home yet, but I certainly wouldn't agree with the above statement.
If you look in the posts on pen enrichment, there are some lovely videos of nina and some great work she has done with alpacas, incorporating clicker training, with her other training methods.

But, you certainly do have to think about emotional control with respect to food. There is defintely a bit of difference between the horse and dog clicker training world. In the dog world, one can intially use food as a lure to get the dog into position ( eg sit) , but with horses one wouldnt use a lure, in case a 500 kg animal wants to sit in your lap.

Here is a link to some info from Karen Pryors site, which may help a littlehttp://www.clickertraining.tv/product.html?item=KPDLVDLL2

I have done a little clicker training with my horses, and in a way the click is the easy part ( a dead clear marker for both parties). A lot of the clinics concentrate on rope handling skills, body awareness etc, - and we spend time practising on each other.( amazing what one can learn pretending to be a horse!_

I have not done yet a camelidynamics course ( doing one in April) but again I know there is an emphasis on practice away from the animals - am looking forward to it.

Cheers
Hilary

PS you can put food in a bowl on the ground to reward if you wish ( and certainly unless they are used to being hand fed this would prob be the way)

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Never say never... I am not a big fan of hand feeding and prefer to relate to my animals using TTouch instead of feeding them. I think they prefer to eat out of a bowl instead of our hands and hand feeding does have real down sides in terms of teaching animals to invade your space. It is also common for them to compete with other animals and inadvertenly learn to spit on people when you hand feed. Nina Faust does a ton of good work with her boys and uses carrots and they are always polite. I think that it is fine to use food to help shape behavior. Just standing around feeding is what I take issue with. If you ask an alpaca... "would you rather eat out of a bowl on the ground or my hand?" I feel like I know the answer. I am not an advocate of a strictly reward based training program and feel like it can become coersive and create a "paid" employee. On the other hand if done carefully and with limits food can be very helpful to teach certain behaviors.

[NinaFaust]

What Marty says about being very careful to keep your animals polite when using rewards in clicker training is very important!!! I am so glad the Camelidynamics Book was my first and main resource for all things alpaca when I got started because it made me aware of alpaca behavior and how important it was going to be to maintain their polite behavior when I started clicker training. That was also stressed at the clicker training workshop. If you use food as a reward it is essential to teach them that mugging you for food is not acceptable. Pulling at your clothes is not acceptable. What constitutes good manners is waiting politely until the reward is offered. You can see some of the training to reinforce this behavior in the video, "A Barn Goddess Teaches Alpaca Manners," http://www.vimeo.com/2598644. If the fellows forget their manners, which does not happen too often, they can forget the treat as well!

[Marty McGee Bennett]

here here!

[Nancy Woodward]

Thank you, Nina!!!

[neorose]

I have done clicker training with a number of species, including my alpacas and llamas. The basis of clicker training is to MARK the behavior with the clicker and have the marker PAIRED with a reinforcer. The reinforcer does not have to be food, but that is often what is used because it is often, for many species the most valuable reinforcer. If you don't find a reinforcer that has value, the animal will not work to get it!

I agree that hand feeding alpacas and llamas can have its downside. But I also think that food reward with clicker is a very fast and efficient way to train. So far I have not found an alternative effective, valuable reinforcer for them. But you must keep your treats SMALL and you reward quickly. it is easy enough to use a 1/2 measuring cup or any other shallow container that you tape a handle to, to contain your food. They only get it for literally a second (one thousand one) and just get a taste of food. And then you take it away. You don't want them to get fat, and you don't want them to take too much time eating the food as you want to keep momentum going and moving forward with training. If you have something with a handle on it your hand is not involved and you can offer and take it away quickly. Also consider taping the clicker onto the handle so that you have the other hand free to for teaching hand signals or using a target stick or whatever (or with target sticks you can put the clicker on that). Be inventive!

Teaching your camelid to target is also VERY valuable as you can then use the target to build more behaviors particularly where you want the animal to move.

But there are several methods of training and clicker training (operant conditioning using positive reinforcement) is not the only way. Just as long as it is not a punishment based training and you are manipulating the environment for your animal's success, you keep your expectations reasonable and attainable and are not constantly correcting "Failures" you will not harm your friend. REMEMBER WITH TRAINING...IF THE ANIMAL DOESN"T "GET IT" THEN LOOK TO YOURSELF FOR THE SOLUTION TO COMMUNICATION and what YOU are doing wrong not what the animal is doing wrong. They don't do things wrong, they do things exactly as they need to in any given situation. The burden is on US to communicate with them, not them to communicate with us!

Susan Brown
Batavia, IL

[Marty McGee Bennett]

I think clicker training is a really good option for teaching alpacas and llamas to do things. I also thing that focusing on handling is a really good way to become a really good clicker trainer. I love what Susan said about if it doesn't work it means you have to look at yourself and how you can communicate more effectively.

[NinaFaust]

Susan is absolutely right on about if the alpaca does not get it, it is not the animal, it is the trainer's communication. I have had to go back many times to rethink what I was asking them to do. Was it too much at once? Did I break the task down into small parts so we can work in tiny steps toward the ultimate task? Figuring out the parts that lead to the behavior is very important because most of the time, the alpaca is not going to make that jump all the way to the final task in one fell swoop. It does not work that way.

For example, picking up a halter and handing it to you starts with just putting the nose near the halter, then touching the halter, then picking it up just a bit, then a bit more, and then finally letting you have it. Each step is clicked and reinforced. The alpaca then starts thinking what do you want next when you no longer click for that last behavior. You can see the wheels turning. It is a progression that is really fun to see develop. And of course, the best part is when the alpaca finally gets to what you really wanted in the first place, giving you the halter.

I don't think I would have gotten to the easy nail clipping I can now do without clicker training. It really opened the way, but the foundation was laid with the trust I had built along the way by behaving in a manner respectful of alpaca behavior. In my view, the Camelidynamics behavior management of animals puts you on a really good footing to work more effectively with the clicker training.

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Hey I just thought of a great way to think about it. You aren't teaching them one task like picking up a halter you are teaching them 30 smaller tasks. I know this seems simplistic but I think it helps to revel in each small success instead of waiting to be pleased when the animal finally gets the big task!

[NinaFaust]

I agree. I get really excited when Canela makes one baby step because he has not yet reached that "Aha" moment that I once saw in Gypsy when I was first training him to jump over an obstacle using clicker training. Once that lightbulb went on and he understood what I was doing, teaching him new things, like using a new toy even, became so much easier. I am still waiting for that to happen with Canela.

[NinaFaust]

I think you are right on. I love it when we get one step closer to the goal.
Nina

[neorose]

With halter acceptance or any other behavior you are teaching in small steps you are SHAPING the behavior and Marty is right in that you are teaching small approximations forward to the final behavior you want. This is a pillar of marker based training and it is really how all the training is done. Rarely do we capture a complete behavior as it will be when it is complete. When we want to train a behavior, we start with small steps and work up to it. For instance with a halter one might start with the animal only looking at the halter, then when they are doing that several times you up the criteria to moving towards the halter then up it to touching the halter and then putting their nose in the halter and so on. Shaping to the end result

The absolute beauty of marker based training is it is ALWAYS THE ANIMALS CHOICE to do the behavior or not. they are not cooerced into a behavior, they CHOOSE to do it because you have postively shaped it and never ever forced it and this makes it very powerful because it is empowering to the animal. Anyone who has done marker based training with ANY species of animal can tell you that once they learn what you are doing, they can't WAIT to learn something new.

Susan Brown

[NinaFaust]

I can sure see that wanting to learn in Gypsy. The only behavior I have clicker trained without a sequence of steps is "cushing". I just caught them in the act, snapped fingers and pointed to the ground while saying "cush" and clicking at the same time. The boys are smart enough that they both figured out what I wanted. Terry in England who trains llamas told me she did the same in teaching her llama to rollover.
Nina

[rwells]

I have done clicker training with a number of species, including my alpacas and llamas. The basis of clicker training is to MARK the behavior with the clicker and have the marker PAIRED with a reinforcer.... *snip*...Susan Brown
Batavia, IL

One more thing, there should be a cue for the requested behavior. So it is: Cue --> Mark --> Reinforce. I noticed in Nina's videos that she used both verbal and gesture cues, and both verbal and click markers. Working with birds, I never used a clicker for the marker before, just verbal markers "Good!", because you always have your voice with you (usually) and it is handy.

Yesterday, I used the examples in Nina's videos to do some target & clicker training with my 2 weanlings. Cuppajoe, the previously jumping boy, learned to target within about a minute. With the target in the clip on the end of the herding wand, I could quickly get him to follow and target where I wanted him. Smart boy. Smitty, also learned quickly, but not as eagerly. I tried using carrot and apple bits as reinforcers, but they didn't like those treats. I ended up using grain pellets in a frisbee instead. Using targeting, I was able to get Smitty to walk over a threshold that he previously balked at.

Cuppajoe was a bit too eager for the grain, so I'm not going to continue to use food reinforcers with him, at least until after I can work with him on the "Alpaca Manners" lessons, as per Nina's examples, maybe when he is a little older.

[NinaFaust]

Hi Rebecca,
Thanks for your insights with your animals. Carrots appear to be an acquired taste for some alpacas. Canela did not like them for at least a week. I introduced them to him in his morning grain/zinc snack. It was not long before he finally discovered that he loves carrots. He has some of that neophobia, fear of new things, that kept him from trying them out.

I am glad you are going to do some manners training. That is very important if you plan to use food for a reward to avoid problems with over eager little food monsters. Camelidynamics and clicker training make a powerful combination in my book. Keep us posted on your progress!

[rwells]

Nina, I'm wondering where you found the "Sway N Play" toy in your video? I found one that is similar, but doesn't seem to have the holes for the treats.
http://www.ottoenvironmental.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?search=yes&bc=no

Is this the same thing? This place has other cool enrichment toys suitable for alpacas, llamas, and other large animals.

[NinaFaust]

What you want is the Sway N Play feeder. It has holes. http://www.ottoenvironmental.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes&sppp=10

Nina

[hilaryc]

I have just watched an excellent dvd done by Alex K,. It is a lecture ( with occasional interspersions from her) on The Poisoned Cue by Jesus Rosales-Ruiz.http://www.clickertraining.com/node/32 . ( this is a little about him) It is defintely worth watching , and makes so much sense.

It differentiates between command, cue , and poisoned cue.

A command is - - do something , and if you don't do it, something negative will happen. ( eg go into trailer, if you dont go in, I will use a brush or similar). At least the animal knows where he stands!

A cue is - do something , and something pleasant will happen. There is no fallout for not doing the process. It is always positive.

A poisoned cue is where - do it and something nice will happen, but if you dont do it something bad will happen. Th animal ( or human!) is then in a state where he dores not know if something good or something bad is about to happen.

This was illustrated with one dog, using a cue, and a poisoned cue, to elicit the same behaviour ( come). Firstly it was trained using shaping, and secondly using different cue it was trained by allowing the dog 2 secs to come and then adding in a leash pull if it hadnt , then clickin and rewarding.

The difference in the same animal in the different situation was remarkable. Th first time, eager, full of joy ( yet brings up some interesting points - at one stage the dog was on his back legs full of eagerness - equate that to a horse and it isn't quite so cute!). When the leash pull was used ( after a little while he dog had no leash pulls because the behaviour was there but even so his demeanor was the same), the dog was very subdued, wandered more, and took longer to learn a new behaviour.

In horse terms, one would look at the second situation , and say , what a polite horse perhaps!

So I can really understand why emotional control ( food, manners etc can help build this) are so important.

But even then, it is not so simple. In horse, and alpacas, we do use negative reinforcement - but perhaps it is the quality of that feel down the rope that makes a real difference.

Having done my initial camelidynamics course, it was invaluable practising leading each other around etc, because one could feedback to the other person what it felt like. A ratchet manoevre, as opposed to a straight pull certainly felt different to me.

[Marty McGee Bennett]

Thanks for that link. Very interesting a poisoned cue... what a great metaphor...

[rwells]

The Feed & Sway I ordered from Otto Environmental arrived this week. I'll introduce it to them this weekend. I also ordered one of their "Grenade" toys, thinking that it might be a good substitute for the oral fixation that the boys seem to have for each other. I hope they get over this stage by the time I take them to shows. Yes, boys will be boys. However, I found that the Grenade is made from a rather hard plastic instead of a Kong -type rubber. If I put a Kong on a chain with a dog clasp to hang on the fence for them to gum on, maybe that will be a more socially acceptable substitute while they get over their "mother issues." :)

BTW: On the Karyn Pryor site, found a page with wonderful animal enrichment puzzles & boredom busters.
http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?source=iad&item=boredombusters1

Rebecca Wells
http://alpacadero.com

[NinaFaust]

Hi Rebecca,
Thanks for the enrichment link. Looks like some new things to try. I will be interested to hear how your fellows like the Feed and Sway. The Grenade did not work with my fellows. They preferred the "Zoy" as something to rub their gums on. The also like the smooth backs of plastic garden chairs. Gypsy will come and gum the back or the chair arm while I am sitting there.

If you find some good ones that work, please pass them on!
Nina